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Thursday, April 12, 2007
And Mena Says *I'm* A Pig
[I]t's one thing to argue--as Markos does--that a blogger code of conduct would be ineffective. Fine. But dismissing online misogyny and Sierra's experience (without even bothering to do any research on the subject, to boot) is reprehensible. Though predictable given the source.
Implying that women are "whining" about harassment or violence against them and mocking them for taking these threats seriously is just such a sexist cliché. I think the progressive blogosphere deserves better.
Indeed.
I, of course, have been arguing that The Code is stupid, unnecessary and...did I already say stupid? Whatever. Anyway, that's merely one relatively minor dealio.
But Jessica's absofuckinglutely right and Markos, not surprisingly, is completely insensitive and batshit insane on the harassment thing. This is precisely why I get so goddamned mad about conflating 'civility' and Sierra's situation. Threats of rape and other forms of violence ain't incivility from where I sit: that rates as vile and dangerous and beyond any civility code.
The Great Orange Satan is correct that hanging in the blogosphere takes a thick skin. I've had my share of virtual stalkers and crank callers in the last few years who have done rather disgusting things. Yet nobody has made me feel unsafe, and I'm sure it's unlikely that anybody will cross that line given that I'm male.
But jeebus, how pigheaded can Markos be? We're not talking about run-of-the-mill trolling here (although it's amazing just how much the trolls at Eschaton love to go after the females in our community more often than not). This is serious shit and should be treated with more respect.
I guess that's another reason why the civility debate pisses me off so much. It obscures a real issue: the fact that there's a lot of misogyny in the blogosphere, and women are often targets of threats and actual violence online and IRL.
ntodd
[Update: this is mostly OT, but it's my goddamned blog so I can do what I want. Digby says some smart things about Imus, civility and misogyny (via The Powder Blue Satan).]
[Update: MBIFXW(bbe) has her usual incisive commentary on the matter:
Me, I detest the "Blogger Code of Ethics," but I put what happened to Kathy Sierra in a separate category from the usual verbal nastiness on the web.
Shit, I agree. I begin to warm to Banalthouse, but then:
What's the best take on this? 1. Liberal men never were feminists. The just pretend like they are until their own interests conflict. Thanks for serving up the evidence for something I've been saying all along. 2. Those whining, repressive victimologists. How cool to see Kos kick their ass.
Or maybe...3. Markos is an individual who is insensitive at times and doesn't represent all liberal men? What, like Anne Frank was perfect?]
April 12, 2007 in Life Is A Chick Flick | Permalink
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Comments
So how does this make you not a pig...? I'm missing that.
Posted by: Thers | Apr 12, 2007 11:41:22 PM
I guess that's another reason why the civility debate pisses me off so much. It obscures a real issue: the fact that there's a lot of misogyny in the blogosphere, and women are often targets of threats and actual violence online and IRL.
This I feel is absolutely spot on.
There are REAL issues with real world ramifications. The pissing and moaning about "civility" is a smokescreen, and diverts attention from real issues.
Posted by: Apprentice to Darth Holden | Apr 12, 2007 11:46:28 PM
Thers - fuck you, you goddamned, impotent, sterile, drunken Mick lout.
Darth - damn straight: it's a fucking smokescreen. Oops, I said 'fucking'.
Posted by: NTodd | Apr 12, 2007 11:49:55 PM
In my opinion, hundreds of years of the racist misogyny of white men like Imus and McGuirk are far more responsible for misogynistic rap music than the reverse.
exactly, does that mean i would be crossing the line if i called NTodd a nappy headed ho?
Imus is right about one thing. context does matter.
Posted by: charley | Apr 13, 2007 12:35:40 AM
Or maybe...4. Markos' wife just had a baby and he's not getting much sleep and the whole 'online civility' debate pisses him off as much as it does you so he just started typing and didn't think thru the post very well?
The only thing althouse said that I agree with is that it looks like Markos prolly didn't do a lot of research into what happened before he popped off about it. Which was dumb, but hardly proof that all liberal men are anti-feminist.
Posted by: flory | Apr 13, 2007 1:02:46 AM
That Althouse, she really graduated from college? Really, with a degree and everything?
I think those young women aren't going the victim route, so much as the had enough route. But of course people like Imus and Olthouse and their followers don't have the capacity to appreciate or understand the difference.
rserven's gonna love this I'm sure, but why do they have to use their race and their sex against them, as if there's something inherently wrong with having nappy hair, being black, being a woman, or being a sex professional.
Hell, being a whore means you sell yourself, and isn't that what you do every time you go on a job interview, take a shower before going "out" on a Friday night, and so on?
As for Kos, well, a good batter hits 1 out of 3, Kos ain't right every time, but, if he'd been a gopper posting that it would've been pretty much an attack on Rutgers, women, women in sports, anybody who said anything about it not attacking the above and so on, so he's showing his human after all, and not an Orange Satan.
Posted by: Duckman GR | Apr 13, 2007 1:06:31 AM
By Satan's Crackers! Where can I get a higher-resolution picture of the anarchistic certification of incivility?!
Posted by: Darryl Pearce | Apr 13, 2007 1:13:18 AM
Thanks, NTodd.
Posted by: Medley | Apr 13, 2007 7:46:27 AM
Good post, you should put it on a blog somewhere.
For yet another conflation of Sierra's experience with the Need To Cleanse Ourselves of Incivility, see Ellen Goodman's column this morning.
Posted by: sdf (Stu) | Apr 13, 2007 8:28:22 AM
Arguing civility might be unnecessary, it is certainly futile. There is no way to enforce a code of any kind on blogging so what's the point?
Anyone who wants to can opt out of incivility, you will get noticed if you stop using fifth-grade level invective but it has the added advantage that the hopelessly childish among the adults on the blog will find you boooorrrrrriinng and so stop bothering you. Of course, your comment rate will fall to zero but at least those you get will stand a better chance of actually being the kind of people who do something instead of yack. At least that's what I tell myself.
Posted by: olvlzl | Apr 13, 2007 8:46:55 AM
Oh sheesh. I shall have to say it AGAIN.
Why are people worried about the words that others use when they ought to be concerned with the ideas that others express.
Words are a show. Think about the fucking ideas behind the words.
Posted by: Snow | Apr 13, 2007 10:44:09 AM
Great post, NTodd. As Snow and Apprentice to Darth said, the ideas behind the words should be the focus. However, putting the focus on the 'incivility' allows the pearl-clutchers to marginalize the ideas themselves. By thinking they are above such earthy vocabulary, they let themselves believe that their worldview is the correct one and the only one that deserves recognition and affirmation.
Posted by: Green | Apr 13, 2007 12:27:08 PM
"although it's amazing just how much the trolls at Eschaton love to go after the females in our community more often than not"
And the only person to ever stand up for me, (and it was nice to have someone do it, once anyway) was you, Todd. Some of your friends though, are total fucking sexist assholes who are not only incivil, which doesn't bother me, but downright vile and evil.
Posted by: annieangel | Apr 13, 2007 12:46:08 PM
Look, actual threats to injure someone (carried over an instrumentality of interstate commerce like the internet) are a federal crime. People shouldn't do it because it's not nice and because it's a federal crime, dammit. See 18 USC 875(c).
Posted by: David in NY | Apr 13, 2007 2:09:43 PM
By thinking they are above such earthy vocabulary, they let themselves believe that their worldview is the correct one and the only one that deserves recognition and affirmation. Green
You don't have to be a pearl clutcher to think that making an issue out of talking dirty is unimportant and boring. It's certainly been done one or two times before. The response of some people on the blogs seems to see it as a requirement to say something pointlessly vulgar. I don't care if other people do it but it's tedious to say and tedious to read. For it to get elevated to the status of an issue is kind of pubescent. Yes, you can say it, we all know you can say it, now show us what else you can do.
Posted by: olvlzl | Apr 13, 2007 2:15:48 PM
WHY is a certain schizo troll STILL pretending to be a woman?
When everyone here knows the REAL story.
Posted by: Terry C, End Bush's War Now! | Apr 13, 2007 9:46:36 PM
Some of your friends though, are total fucking sexist assholes who are not only incivil, which doesn't bother me, but downright vile and evil.
Er, anallimpy/shoe annie - aren't YOU the one who got on that piece of shit blog of yours and complained about how bad feminists are?
So don't call anyone else "sexist", you greasy-haired twit.
Posted by: | Apr 13, 2007 10:09:43 PM
LOL, I didn't know complaining aobut feminists was sexist.......do feminists define what sexism is? Cuz, like, as far as I'm concerened, the whole bunch of hairy legged boat rockers can go fuck themselves if they think they will define what being a woman does or should mean to me.
Posted by: annieangel | Apr 13, 2007 10:43:37 PM
Now I understand why I got so little harassment when I used to use only my LJ id.
Slaveboy, were you there when one rather tedous troll over at Blue Satan's crib learned I was female? And how differently he treated me after that? No, it wasn't in a bad way. He was actually extremely polite. Too polite. If you know what I mean. Rolled over on his back and writhed for me to scratch his belly. Really pathetic. But all I had to do was show up, and he'd skeedaddle. I'd send Atrios a bill for the pest removal, but that's too much like something Tom Delay would have done, so I'll pass.
Anyway, I get a lot more "Shut up, you stupid (insert female-indicative expletive here)" responses after tacking on the /Aquaria that I didn't get before, on the few occasions when I venture into the more, er, free-form venues. I don't go to such places often these days, but that's mostly because I simply can't tolerate the online circus atmosphere more than fear.
Still, fear is in the back of my head whenever I'm online, and has been for years. I hadn't been online for a year when I got a stalker. I was careful, and it still happened. I've been ID thefted twice, and that's using "reputable" sites (known companies, secure sign ins, etc.) Want to know bone-chilling terror? Try seeing your savings wiped out, overnight. Yeah, you get the money back. Eventually. But you have a lot of hassles in the mean time.
And that it's a lot more likely to happen to me, simply because I have a XX chromosome? That's the thing that infuriates me. I can only imagine what it must be like for women who are also lesbians or minorities, or both.
I think someone upthread was right that this isn't about victimhood. It's about having enough. Enough! I'm sick of it! I deserve the right to come online and not worry that someone is going to deprive my son of his mother, or have us worried about how we'll pay our bills.
I deserve the right to my beliefs and my opinions, and the freedom to express them, as long as they don't threaten anyone/cause harm. I deserve these things, not because I'm a woman, but because I'm a human being.
What part of this don't these maniacs understand?
Posted by: LJ/Aquaria | Apr 14, 2007 12:13:50 AM
LJ - I remember that. It's just fucking sociopathic.
Posted by: NTodd | Apr 14, 2007 1:54:33 AM
Buy me stuff off my 
