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Friday, August 27, 2004
The Euthyphro Dilemma
Socrates famously asked whether the divine is loved by the gods because it is divine, or is it divine because it is loved by the gods?
Almost as famously, some advocates of the Iraq misadventure have accused us anti-war folks of cheering on the enemy so more troops get killed, which will in turn set the American public against the war and thus cause the defeat of Bush II. They say we hate Bush so much we'd wish ill on our soldiers just to get him out of the White House. Similar arguments pertain to economic bad news.
Well, allow me to pose an updated version of the Euthyphro Dilemma: do we cheer bad things because we want to defeat Bush, or do we want to defeat Bush because he's caused bad things? The answer to this one is easy, and left as an exercise to the budding philosophy student.
ntodd
August 27, 2004 | Permalink
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Comments
I'll take (c), none of the above.
I'm no philosophy student, but I believe you've set up a bifurcation fallacy.
Posted by: Hubris | Aug 27, 2004 2:29:19 PM
I think you mean False Dichotomoy. Anyway, I see your objection, so allow me to reformulate:
Do we cheer bad things because we want to defeat Bush, or do we want to defeat Bush because (we believe) he's caused bad things?
Posted by: NTodd | Aug 27, 2004 2:40:47 PM
It may be that both of you are right, in that a bifurcation fallacy is a type of false dichotomy.
Posted by: Ron | Aug 27, 2004 2:50:52 PM
I think you mean False Dichotomoy.
There are more terms in heaven and earth, my pedantic friend..etc. Scroll to False Dilemma (aka False Dichotomy) and read to the end.
I don't think you wish for bad things to happen; however, I would guess that you are pleased when you see statistics supporting your position. It's not, for example, that you want more people to be poor, but you're glad to see measures of the reality you feel is already certain. It's not "Good!" Rather, it's "I knew it!"
Just a guess.
Posted by: Hubris | Aug 27, 2004 2:54:40 PM
Erudition, wit, and insight, all in one post. I love it. Brava. :)
Posted by: Shaula Evans | Aug 27, 2004 2:56:20 PM
It may be that both of you are right...There are more terms in heaven and earth, my pedantic friend..etc.
Fie on that! I call it a False Dichotomy, and by God, that's what it is on my blog. Don't make me ban you guys.
I would guess that you are pleased when you see statistics supporting your position.
You guess wrong.
I am not beholden to an ideology (well, I s'pose you could say NV is an ideology, but I mean politically), nor to any party. I vote GOP quite often at the State level (did at the Fed as well until Jim became an Indy like me), and prefer split government at all levels because I don't trust any of these fuckers. I blame Thomas Jefferson's influence.
I thus have no intellectual or political stake in this except that of all Americans: I want the best for our nation. I have no doubt you and Ron and (gasp!) even RD want the same, and we just disagree on the particulars.
Above all, and the reason for this post, is that I desperately want to be proven wrong here. I want Iraq to be a shining beacon of democracy (my preference for a non-violent solution aside), the Iraqis to be happy, our troops home, safe and alive, our job market to be wonderful, our economy to be booming and all that other happy horse shit. I want all that with a passion that you just don't know (and if anybody gets that obscure reference, you win one of my Macanudos).
If I believed Bush's policies worked, I would vote for Bush. Alas, this isn't even really a matter of belief: I have seen his policies in action, and I find them wanting. Thus, I want Bush defeated because I believe he is the cause of what I see as evil things.
As an aside, this is why I'm a firm believe in NV action. I've seen that violence only begets more violence. If it didn't, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's pragmatism as much as morality.
Erudition, wit, and insight, all in one post. I love it. Brava. :)
That expensive liberal arts education has to count for something, eh? ;-)
Posted by: NTodd | Aug 27, 2004 3:16:46 PM
That expensive liberal arts education has to count for something, eh? ;-)
Jesus, I didn't think Colby College was even accredited!
Just teasing, have a nice weekend. ;)
Posted by: Hubris | Aug 27, 2004 3:23:01 PM
God damn it, Colby dropped to 19th? We were 7th ranked when I went there (we were also involved in a leap frog battle with Bennington for the "honor" of being the most expensive every year).
Holy shit: Bowdoin beats us, too?! Well, at least we're higher than Bates. I think our football team is doing better, too (I believe we won a single game my entire college career).
Well, I guess my annual gift to the college is still secure for now...
Posted by: NTodd | Aug 27, 2004 3:39:22 PM
Oh, I should add that we were more of a hoops school. ECAC Div III champs a couple years during my tenure.
Posted by: NTodd | Aug 27, 2004 3:40:23 PM
I think our football team is doing better, too (I believe we won a single game my entire college career).
Don't feel bad, Harvard's football team was the team of the '90s...the 1890s.
Posted by: Hubris | Aug 27, 2004 3:41:40 PM
nt - "Do we cheer bad things because we want to defeat Bush, or do we want to defeat Bush because (we believe) he's caused bad things?"
More like we went to different schools together. I'm sure you believe he's caused bad things, so why wouldn't you want to defeat President Bush. I don't believe most well intended lefties cheer bad things, rather than trumpet them. Big difference. And only the fringe unhinged believes anyone supports higher body counts for political gain. Unless you have a film to promote.
Posted by: RD | Aug 27, 2004 3:44:05 PM
Another thought...some bad things aren't really bad things, but presented as bad. Once you get by the fact that that's true, you are then welcome to debate it's ethics.
Posted by: RD | Aug 27, 2004 3:47:42 PM
Don't feel bad, Harvard's football team was the team of the '90s...the 1890s.
Yeah, but you still have a bigger endowment, despite my best efforts (as a donor and member of our Alumni Giving Cmte).
some bad things aren't really bad things, but presented as bad.
Yup, and the corollary is some good things aren't really good things, but presented as good. Damn, now we're right back where we started. Where's Nietzsche when you need him?
Posted by: NTodd | Aug 27, 2004 4:28:38 PM
If this liberally educated classicist may interject a nitpick here, "divine" is not really a good translation for "hosios," the adjective that Plato used in the original Greek. The Great Scott preferentially translates it as "sanctioned by divine law, hallowed, holy" (and specifically cites the Euthyphro in reference to this definition). "Divine" would more likely be "theios."
Posted by: Michael | Aug 27, 2004 9:51:23 PM
Michael - I've generally seen "pious" in the formulation, but that bugs the crap out of me. "Divine" looks better to me in English, for whatever reason. Besides, we're talking about my wasted liberal arts education, not yours.
Hmmm...restated, the dilemma could be "is a philosophy major a waste because student would rather get stoned, or would the student rather get stoned because a philosophy major is a waste?" Either way, please don't tell my parents they wasted their $80k (shit, too late, I came clean several years ago--no matter, if they're not nice to me I've threatened to put them in a bad home).
Posted by: NTodd | Aug 27, 2004 10:10:04 PM
Yup, and the corollary is some good things aren't really good things, but presented as good. Damn, now we're right back where we started.
That's about as much enlightenment as a reader has at the end of Euthyphro. (I read it in Greek back in college.)
Euthyphro: Another time, Socrates; for I am in a hurry, and must go now.
Socrates: Alas! my companion, and will you leave me in despair? I was hoping that you would instruct me in the nature of piety and impiety; and then I might have cleared myself of Meletus and his indictment. I would have told him that I had been enlightened by Euthyphro, and had given up rash innovations and speculations, in which I indulged only through ignorance, and that now I am about to lead a better life.
Posted by: digamma | Aug 28, 2004 12:14:50 PM
I just love the smell of aporia in the morning :-9
NTodd: No, "divine" will not work for me. Not an accurate translation, and surely problematic in this specific context. Unless you're arguing that "the gods" are not part of "the divine," that is. "Pious," though perhaps inelegant, is at least in the ballpark. "The holy" is, as I recall, how we did it in one of my introductory Greek classes, long ago and far away. You could even stretch a bit and say "the good." But "the divine" is a no-go.
Posted by: Michael | Aug 28, 2004 12:33:35 PM
Euthyphro: Another time, Socrates; for I am in a hurry, and must go now.
Euthyphro, the very first troll.
"the divine" is a no-go.
No wonder I never liked ancient Greek philosophy (one of the classes I would almost always skip if there wasn't a test that day): not only did they claim things like men have more teeth than women, but they almost always could be depended on to use the exact wrong word. ;-)
Posted by: NTodd | Aug 28, 2004 1:52:44 PM
Buy me stuff off my 
