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Thursday, June 03, 2004

There's Glory For You!

A discussion yesterday over at Washington Monthly about the draft devolved quickly into an argument about the word "imperial". I've been thinking about the meaning of words a lot since then, and I figured that was grist for a blog entry.

First, a little Lewis Carroll, whom I cited in the aforementioned thread:

"There's glory for you!"
"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument,' " Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is, " said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty. "which is to be master—that's all."

My interest in this is from a philosophical, linguistic and political perspective, but I'm going to focus on the latter. Last summer I wondered how it is that the wingers seem to be able to frame national debate better than we on the left. A lot of it I think has to do with their choice of words, of course, but also their very willingness to stand firm in how they describe things. Up until recently I've seen Dems/liberals shy away from calling Bush what he is: a lying warmonger who is more concerned about his corporatist agenda than what's good for the country. We wouldn't want to offend the sensibilities of potential voters, especially when there are so many ways to look at things, would we?

Well damn it, I'm tired of letting the wingers get away with using whatever words they want, while we try to not step on anybody's toes. Words have literal meanings, but they also carry nuanced connotations. I use Schlesinger's term "imperial presidency" to describe Bush, not because he is literally an emperor, but because that word for me best describes the mosaic that is this President.

That Bush is up for election in November doesn't negate the use of "imperial", as some have argued. Nor does the fact that Bush lacks absolute power mean he isn't imperial. Frankly, no leader really has absolute power as all regimes require consent. We might overthrow Bush in a few months, just as other rulers have had their reigns ended--ours is simply a peaceful method.

British monarchs ruled a global empire and yet their powers were limited by the Magna Carta as well as the practical realities of their domain. Roman emperors also had to contend with members of the ruling class to stay in power. Being imperial is not a matter of whether you wear a crown or instead have elections--it has everything to do with the concentration of power. Bush, until the worm started turning, has had a great deal of power in his grasp.

Not only does the Commander-in-Chief of the most power military in the world wield incredible violent power, as evident in our toppling the Taliban and Saddam, he has incredible power at home. The party Bush heads is in control of the entire apparatus of centralized government in this country. His ability to push through his agenda, particularly post-9/11, is proof positive: USA PATRIOT, the Iraq war resolution, the Medicare bill, etc, all point to his power.

What's more, Bush's well-documented belief that God selected him to be President shows that he feels he's the center of some grand cosmic plan. Beyond narcissism, his own statements demonstrates he has no interest in openness or opinions that diverge from his world view. The administration's refusal to be transparent--the deceptions and outright lies they've used to sell wars and legislation--is part and parcel of an imperial presidency.

More literally, the fact that the US, at Bush's behest, has launched imperial wars and expanded our global hegemony is a clear sign. But don't take my word for it, look at what folks at the Air War College say:

The uniqueness of the American empire as a voluntary association of market democracies does not alter the imperial obligations of the United States as the center of that empire.

We might be a different flavor, but we're an empire all the same. And Number 43 wields supreme executive power in the American empire not only by Constitutional writ, but also due to his party's accumulation of federal control and his own Nixonian assertion of his presidential prerogative.

Now, Bush said on numerous occasions that he is a "war president". If I might be so bold, I take issue with that.

FDR was clearly a war president. He successfully lead our country through an immensely destructive global conflict against three absolutely tryannical regimes, including one which institutionalized mass murder, that really threatened the entire world. Not only did Roosevelt mobilize our people and call for sacrifice on a national scale, he also offered hope and reassurance at the same time. He was intelligent, articulate and engaged, and a true leader in horrific times.

This whole charade of comparing our current situation to WWII, let alone calling our struggle against terror a "war", is completely ludicrous. We are in no way threatened to the same degree, no matter how often Bush and his apologists repeat the cant, and our latest rationale of "liberation" for invading Iraq is hogwash. Nor has Bush offered hope or vision, except to say we will keep fighting evildoers and that everybody should go about their lives as before.

Bush, in his zeal to tie his wars of choice to a just war of the past, shows just how little he understands about our true conflict. World War II was an example of what Boyd called Attrition Warfare. Today we are engaged in a Moral Conflict, which requires not bravado and bellicosity, but constructive cooperation and addressing root causes. Unfortunately Bush has not shown true leadership because he ignores the truth as he annoints himself War President for political gain.

Now allow me to be Humpty Dumpty for a moment: Bush is not a war president; rather, he is a "president in a time of war", and an imperial one at that. Too bad that's precisely what we don't need right now. We need "glory", and I don't mean a "a nice knock-down argument".

ntodd

June 3, 2004 | Permalink

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Hi NTodd,

Sorry to follow you to your blog, but any traffic's good traffic, eh?

We might be a different flavor, but we're an empire all the same. And Number 43 wields supreme executive power in the American empire not only by Constitutional writ, but also due to his party's accumulation of federal control and his own Nixonian assertion of his presidential prerogative.

You have now defined America as an empire; therefore, every president has been/will be an "imperial" president within the framework you have created. You say:

Being imperial is not a matter of whether you wear a crown or instead have elections--it has everything to do with the concentration of power. Bush, until the worm started turning, has had a great deal of power in his grasp.

If Kerry wins and the Democrats recover control of Congress, Kerry will have the exact same scope of control. I still won't consider him "imperial."

Last summer I wondered how it is that the wingers seem to be able to frame national debate better than we on the left. A lot of it I think has to do with their choice of words, of course, but also their very willingness to stand firm in how they describe things.

So now you are becoming that which (I'm sure) you have detested. Does a willingness to use extremist terms, and a stubborn resolve to continue using those terms, contribute to effective political debate?

You use the word "warmonger." In this case, the word is apt on its face; however, it is an example of trying to use labels in a way that contributes nothing to political discourse. Think of our leaders that meet the definition of "warmonger," and I'm sure you would (correctly) make great distinctions between them based on the reasons they favored war or warlike policies based on the context they found themselves in.

What's more, Bush's well-documented belief that God selected him to be President shows that he feels he's the center of some grand cosmic plan. Beyond narcissism, his own statements demonstrates he has no interest in openness or opinions that diverge from his world view.

This isn't actually evidence of narcissim; rather, it's evidence of a belief some people have that there is a higher power who guides events for a reason. I could see why some would criticize this belief, but it's actually better evidence of humility (i.e. man does not have complete and unfettered control over events) than narcissism. In any event, you are again citing a characteristic (narcissism) that is no more associated with imperialism than any other type of rule.


Posted by: Hubris | Jun 3, 2004 11:02:16 AM

Hubris,

Sorry to follow you to your blog, but any traffic's good traffic, eh?

Hey, no need to apologize. The whole point of my blogwhoring was to generate some traffic, and I was actually hoping you might stop by.

every president has been/will be an "imperial" president within the framework you have created.

Not at all.

The US is a kind of empire, yes, and the office of President will thus be inherently imperial to some extent. All presidents, by virtue of their desire to be in office, have some characteristics or tendencies or temptations that can be described as imperial, but I submit that not all those who hold the office are in fact "imperial presidents". It's a matter of degree of both attitude and actions.

It's the same with America herself. We are an empire, but do we always act imperially? I don't think so.

If Kerry wins and the Democrats recover control of Congress, Kerry will have the exact same scope of control. I still won't consider him "imperial."

I won't, either, unless he starts acting imperially.

So now you are becoming that which (I'm sure) you have detested.

Incorrect assumption. I don't detest members of the other side of the political divide, nor do I detest their ability to frame the debate. Quite the contrary, I admire it!

Does a willingness to use extremist terms, and a stubborn resolve to continue using those terms, contribute to effective political debate?

Nope, and I don't believe using the adjective "imperial" is extreme in the slightest. I didn't call him a Nazi, for crying out loud! I am simply framing the debate in the language I think is most powerful as well as reflects what I believe.

All communication, no matter the form, is about framing. In my photography, for example, you can take framing in a literal, visual sense: I decide when I compose a picture what might go in the foreground to anchor my subject, and when I crop my photos I decide how much context I want to provide for the subject. In poetry, the phrasing and structure I use conveys meaning and evokes images in the reader's mind.

In political discourse, it's all about choosing the terms for debate. Just look at the abortion issue: are you pro-life, pro-choice, anti-life, anti-choice? Did Bush sign legislation giving us "clean skies" and "healthy forests", or did he gut environmental law?

So when I choose to describe Bush as imperial, I don't do so cavalierly as you had suggested yesterday. It clearly did exactly what I wanted: with all the connotations that it carries, the word communicated how I feel about Bush. Not only that, but it sparked a debate that allowed me to further spell out my grievances with him (e.g., Nixonian secrecy, lies and threats re: Medicare, etc).

The "true believers" aren't going to be swayed by anything that I say, just as they won't be able to get me to forsake my core beliefs. Those who already agree with me are simply going to say "amen" and move on. But if I can throw a little gasoline on the fire, I might be able to get somebody's attention and maybe give them something new to think about.

You use the word "warmonger." In this case, the word is apt on its face; however, it is an example of trying to use labels in a way that contributes nothing to political discourse. Think of our leaders that meet the definition of "warmonger," and I'm sure you would (correctly) make great distinctions between them based on the reasons they favored war or warlike policies based on the context they found themselves in.

I agree using the term "warmonger" is arguably extreme, but hyperbole does have a time-honored place in rhetoric. However, I also think it's apt because Bush clearly wanted war with Iraq at all costs, no matter what the current geopolitical situation was or what policies the US has followed for decades. His violation of international law in prosecuting his unilateral (don't get me started about the farce known as the "coalition") preventive (not pre-emptive) war makes him a warmonger in my book.

One could argue that Clinton was a warmonger as well, but I wouldn't buy it. I disagreed vehemently with his policies in the former Yugo, but he went in with true international support to stop genocide and aggression as it was happening (don't get me started about Rwanda), and never once questioned the patriotism of those who did not support him (read: GOP). He wasn't a jingo.

Just as all who are President of the US are not necessarily imperial, not all who wage war are warmongers.

This isn't actually evidence of narcissim; rather, it's evidence of a belief some people have that there is a higher power who guides events for a reason.

This by itself might not be evidence of narcissim, although certainly believing God made him President does reflect some level of self-centeredness (reminds me of when Calvin told Hobbes that history's sole purpose was to lead up to him!). I'll note that taken with other things Bush says and does, I think it's very likely that according to the DSM IV he suffers from narcissistic personality disorder, but that's the subject of another post.

you are again citing a characteristic (narcissism) that is no more associated with imperialism than any other type of rule.

And you again, in your point-by-point parsing, are not seeing the forest for the trees. I don't claim that any one of these characteristics taken in a vacuum mean that Bush is imperial. Simply having self-concern does not a narcissist make, but combined with an exaggeration of the importance of one's experiences and feelings, a reluctance to accept blame or criticism, and a need for admiration, the indications would certainly be strong.

In other words, it's many things taken together that allow us to define something or someone. The star Mizar by itself cannot be called a constellation, but if you look at in along with Alioth and several other stars you get the Big Dipper (technically an asterism, but you get the point). Similarly, being an imperial president is a constellation of characteristics, such as narcissism, that includes all that I've listed here and at Kevin's site.

If President Kerry also rams his agenda through Congress (some of which I hope succeeds in reversing what Bush has done), I might entertain the notion that he's imperial. But absent of engaging in imperial wars (staying the course in Bush's quagmire doesn't count), acting beholden to the ruling class (not unlikely given he's a rich Dem), and hiding information from the American people (certainly possible), I probably won't concede the point.

Posted by: NTodd | Jun 3, 2004 2:06:25 PM

Hmmm. I think that our disagreement, at its core, arises from the different way we see political discourse.

I believe point-by-point parsing, as you put it, is essential to check for accuracy and restaint in political dialogue (see my comments under the alias "K-Mart" at Spinsanity.com). You are trying to throw gasoline on the fire, while I am doing my best to throw water on the fire.

Here's my last hairsplitting. Which is more narcissistic and arrogant: To feel that you were placed into the presidency because of God's will/guidance, or to believe that you got there because of your own incredible talents, efforts and achievement, which earned you the most powerful job in the world?

Posted by: Hubris | Jun 3, 2004 2:17:25 PM

I believe point-by-point parsing, as you put it, is essential to check for accuracy and restaint in political dialogue

I absolutely agree. However, if you only parse, and don't look at the overall picture, you are going to fall into the same trap as the blindmen and the elephant.

The problem is most things are not unidimensional. I say "characteristics A, B, and C together mean Bush is X." You are totally correct in asserting that "characteristic A does not mean Bush is X," but you ignore the relationship between A, B, and C and how they imply X. Now if you were able to disprove A, B, and C, then logically X would not be true.

You are trying to throw gasoline on the fire, while I am doing my best to throw water on the fire.

In this particular instance, I am indeed throwing gas on the fire because it suits--I also douse flames from time to time. Fire is not inherently a bad thing. It gives us warmth and can be romantic, and only when it gets out of control do we need to throw water on it.

As Plutarch said: The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled.

Or perhaps Sam Adams is more to the point: It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in people’s minds.

Which is more narcissistic and arrogant

To believe that I'm so special in God's eyes that I was granted my position of power. Whether it be an individual or a tribe, the idea of being Chosen is inherently chauvinistic.

I believe all people have a spark, what Quakers call The Inner Light, and it is up to each of us to make it grow into a roaring fire of humanity. I prefer the notion that a person makes choices and works hard to realize their full potential. Otherwise, there ain't no free will, and that idea leaves me cold.

Posted by: NTodd | Jun 3, 2004 3:43:56 PM

NTodd,

I'm not ignoring the accumulation of individual factors; rather, I'm showing that you're building a rhetorical house on a faulty foundation. You're adding in variables that in actuality do nothing to increase the "sum" (the evidence for your conclusion).

In my opinion, we're not in need of additional fire with respect to domestic politics. It's much fire, even more smoke, and precious little substance and dialogue. Furthermore, it isn't a productive fire when it's based on exaggerated claims; it's just stoking up an already agitated mob.

To believe that I'm so special in God's eyes that I was granted my position of power.

You're missing the point here. While I'm a free will guy myself, those who believe all actions are essentially guided by God are subordinating the self. They are saying they don't deserve credit, whether their lot in life is to be a stable boy or a world leader. They consider themselves a cog in a master plan, not that they won some sort of specialness contest before God.

Posted by: Hubris | Jun 3, 2004 4:14:08 PM

I'm not ignoring the accumulation of individual factors; rather, I'm showing that you're building a rhetorical house on a faulty foundation. You're adding in variables that in actuality do nothing to increase the "sum" (the evidence for your conclusion).

I don't see how you've shown my foundation is faulty.

It seems pretty damn clear that an imperial president has the following characteristics at the very least: narcissism, arrogance of power, concentrated power, a domineering posture, lack of transparency. It also seems clear that Bush meets all those criteria.

You haven't disproven my definition, nor have you disproven any of the individual premises. You've merely asserted that characteristic X does not imply Y.

They consider themselves a cog in a master plan, not that they won some sort of specialness contest before God.

Alas, I generally hear in such pronouncements from people like Bush that God is indeed setting them apart. Too much "piety" and "humility" in public strikes me as antithetical to those very things.

Matthew 6:5: When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men.

Further, just because someone gives all the credit to God doesn't mean they aren't full of themselves anyway. Remember, people here on Earth and often view themselves as above others, particularly non-believers. Suborning yourself to a Supreme Being, and narcissism in the context of worldly affairs, are not mutually exclusive.

Returning to your original question, though, I'd say the answer depends on the truth and/or what the individual believes. If God really did put you in your position, it would be narcissistic and stupid to claim otherwise. If you did it without God's help, why should you reject the notion that your own choices and work got you where you are?

Posted by: NTodd | Jun 3, 2004 4:48:45 PM

It seems pretty damn clear that an imperial president has the following characteristics at the very least: narcissism, arrogance of power, concentrated power, a domineering posture, lack of transparency. It also seems clear that Bush meets all those criteria.

This is where your foundation is faulty. You're describing characteristics that may be exhibited by many imperial regimes, but those characteristics aren't what makes them imperial. You're confusing correlation and causation; in this case, you're describing side effects of imperial power which are not actually evidence of the possession of imperial power.

I smoke, so I can use this example: Smokers are more likely not to exercise. However, ascertaining that someone does not exercise does not identify them as a smoker. It's just a characteristic that's often associated with smokers.

You'll like this one: Imperial rulers are probably more likely to exhibit recessive gene disorders as a result of inbreeding within the imperial family line. If Bush shows signs of inbreeding, that doesn't show that he's imperial (and isn't good evidence even when combined with other factors).

I won't get into a Bible (or Bartlett's) quote war with you; I don't necessarily find statements more compelling simply because of their source. In this century, effective leaders from Churchill to Clinton have invoked God and I don't automatically conclude that they're a hippocrite simply because they do it in public.

I'm not saying the invocation of God proves humility, I'm simply saying it isn't proof of a lack of humility. I think your view is colored by the caricatured stereotype of anyone who is both religious and a Republican.

Posted by: Hubris | Jun 3, 2004 5:12:09 PM

You're describing characteristics that may be exhibited by many imperial regimes, but those characteristics aren't what makes them imperial. You're confusing correlation and causation; in this case, you're describing side effects of imperial power which are not actually evidence of the possession of imperial power.

I am not confusing correlation with causation because I am not saying X is the cause of Y, but talking about the definition and application of a descriptive word.

All we have to go on when determining the character of a person is what is observable (or indirectly, reportable). To pick up your smoking example, I'm not saying the fact that there's a lit cigarette in your mouth causes you to be a smoker--I'm saying that because I see a lit cigarette in your mouth, you are highly likely to be a smoker (unless you're an actor). What I see in Bush smacks of imperial power by definition.

I don't necessarily find statements more compelling simply because of their source.

Neither do I. I merely brought up Matthew because the very faith that Bush loudly professes also regards such public displays of piety to be anathema.

from Churchill to Clinton have invoked God and I don't automatically conclude that they're a hippocrite simply because they do it in public.

Nor do I. However, when I hear someone talk about God to the degree that Bush does, particularly when he talks about being annointed not by voters but by a higher power, I become both nervous and skeptical. Taken with everything else, I see a disturbing mosaic.

I think your view is colored by the caricatured stereotype of anyone who is both religious and a Republican.

Think what you like, but I can assure you that you're wrong.

Posted by: NTodd | Jun 3, 2004 5:30:00 PM

Think what you like, but I can assure you that you're wrong.

I'll take your word on it; just be sure to apply this standard across the political spectrum. MLK sure got preachy, for example.


One more time, the characteristics do not "smack of" imperialism by definition. Look back at the definition(s).

"Smacks of" in reference to any "-ism," dare I say it, smacks of Chinese Cultural Revolution language.

It's your blog, so I'll let you get the last word.

Have a good day.

Posted by: Hubris | Jun 3, 2004 5:44:19 PM

You know, this discussion reminds me of a joke my favorite philosophy prof told me long ago:

Philosopher #1: Life is like a bowl of cherries.
Philosopher #2: How so?
Philosopher #1: Okay, so life isn't like a bowl of cherries.

When speaking metaphorically, of course, we aren't speaking literally. And I think that's the crux of the issue here.

I say Bush has many scary, imperial qualities, so I call him imperial. You object because he doesn't literally have all the qualities, or they aren't necessarily unique to imperial power, or whatever. But I am not saying he is an emperor, I'm only observing that in word, deed and actual power, he is very much like an emperor (and one I hope to peacefully overthrow in a few months).

Posted by: NTodd | Jun 3, 2004 5:47:48 PM

Looks like a bit of a cross post...

I'll take your word on it; just be sure to apply this standard across the political spectrum. MLK sure got preachy, for example.

Uh, MLK was a preacher. They tend to be preachy.

One more time, the characteristics do not "smack of" imperialism by definition. Look back at the definition(s).

I did, which is why I used the freaking word in the first place! I hate to do what you didn't want to do earlier, but if you demand I look at the definition, here it is.

1 a : of, relating to, befitting, or suggestive of an empire or an emperor

Read "suggestive" as "smacks of".

2 a : SOVEREIGN [one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere c : an acknowledged leader] b : REGAL [of, relating to, or suitable for a king], IMPERIOUS [marked by arrogant assurance : DOMINEERING]

Again, Bush has got these in spades.

"Smacks of" in reference to any "-ism," dare I say it, smacks of Chinese Cultural Revolution language.

You have got to be kidding me! Because I note that somebody acts in an imperial manner, you now say that's like the Cultural Revolution? How politically correct of you to cavalierly toss such slander when I use an adjective I think fitting.

Note I don't advocate anything more than electing this man out of office, and merely one of my reasons happens to be that Bush strikes me as being imperial. Get over it.

Posted by: NTodd | Jun 3, 2004 6:58:55 PM

I was done, but that demands a response...on the run, will comment tomorrow...

Posted by: Hubris | Jun 3, 2004 9:20:17 PM

Okeedokee.

BTW, here are a few articles by commies like me on the subject:

That last one is by John Dean, Nixon's lawyer.

Posted by: NTodd | Jun 3, 2004 9:36:00 PM

NTodd, interesting post. I can see what you're on about... a British commentator, I think name of Niall Ferguson, has also suggested that America in a more general sense has become an imperial power with the potential to do more good in the world than ever the British Empire did... if that's what floats the boat of the incumbent head of state, of course.

Agreed with your final para as well, despite anything Hubris may have to say on the subject.

Posted by: TheaLogie | Jun 4, 2004 8:41:34 AM

Excellent conversation here, NTodd and Hubris; I'm only sad I missed getting in on the beginning.

I think one thing that Hubris missed - and NTodd, you never got back to it and may have diluted your original post's intent - was "framing." NTodd's choice of words were an intentional attempt at re-framing an argument that had already been framed by the right. The argument over definitions - especially "imperial" - stemmed precisely from the rights refusal to acknowledge a more classic definition of the word; which would lead one to consider Bush an imperial president.

By refusing to acknowledge that definition and by refusing to allow the application of the word in political discourse (not literally of course, but by ignoring, dismissing or shutting out the speaker), the right had skewed the frame of the conversation. In photography terms, the photograph was cropped in such a way as to obscure the actual subject or intent of the photo from the viewer.

Framing. The left has abandoned the field in the battle over framing so many discussions; not because we are "weak," but because we attempt to see all sides of an argument or issue. We know that all "facts" are contingent... subject to further revision as more data comes in. Unfortunately we are finding that politics is not like science - nobody cares about contingency or additional data. Once the argument has been framed, that frame becomes nearly permanent; ossified. It's becoming too much like religion...

Posted by: Charles2 | Jun 4, 2004 9:21:47 AM

Thea - I love Niall Ferguson, and quoted him in an article I wrote for Open Source Politics last year: A Peaceful World Won’t Happen By Itself. He had a nice piece on power in Hoover Digest that I thought hit the nail on the proverbial head.

Charles - thanks for reminding us about framing! The SCLM, for instance, has framed this election about a contest between "a guy you'd want to have a beer with" and a "Boston Brahmin". I'd rather frame it as an "imperial President" versus somebody "who has seen the true cost of imperial ambition first-hand".

Posted by: NTodd | Jun 4, 2004 9:31:48 AM

Had to respond as "[g]et over it" wasn't a very magnanimous last word. :)

Haven't had time to read your linked articles yet.

Uh, MLK was a preacher. They tend to be preachy.

Look back at your Bible verse.


Your citation of the definition does not help. The imperious/arrogance aspect is the only aspect that reasonably fits, and to apply the word on that basis only is not an apt use of the word.

You have got to be kidding me! Because I note that somebody acts in an imperial manner, you now say that's like the Cultural Revolution? How politically correct of you to cavalierly toss such slander when I use an adjective I think fitting.

I was hoping this would be your response. *IRONY ALERT* When you stretch a word by applying it to someone to whom it does not really apply, it's a fitting use of an adjective. When I do the same unfair thing (compare you to Cultural Revolution zealots based solely on one aspect by which they were known, their obsession with use of "-ism" characterizations), I'm indulging in cavalier slander. Perhaps now you understand my borderline fetishistic concern with the proper use of labels.

Agreed with your final para as well, despite anything Hubris may have to say on the subject.

Well, don't read my comments then. It will save you time.


Posted by: Hubris | Jun 4, 2004 9:40:13 AM

Charles2,

Good morning.

The problem is with labeling, and tossing everyone into amorphous lumps known as the "left" and "right."

I don't see this as a propaganda battle where I'm trying to shut down discourse; far from it. I think the exaggeration that is part and parcel of using terms like "imperial" when the usage is questionable is what leads to a lack of substantive debate.

I don't think extremist terms should be applied to Kerry, either. Or pointless sneers such as "Boston Brahmin."

Framing is about political competition. It's like advertising propaganda. I'd prefer political criticism/conversation.

Posted by: Hubris | Jun 4, 2004 9:47:21 AM

Had to respond as "[g]et over it" wasn't a very magnanimous last word. :)

No, it wasn't! :-)

Uh, MLK was a preacher. They tend to be preachy.

Look back at your Bible verse.

That's about praying, not about preaching. JC himself preached.

Your citation of the definition does not help. The imperious/arrogance aspect is the only aspect that reasonably fits, and to apply the word on that basis only is not an apt use of the word.

Sorry, but we're going to have to agree to disagree here. You are being way too literal and obtuse. Bush's attitude, actions, and words clearly fit all the definitions.

*IRONY ALERT*

Uh, I was actually using irony. Thought that would be obvious since I used the term "cavalier", which you used earlier, plus extreme codewords like "slander" and "politically correct".

When I do the same unfair thing (compare you to Cultural Revolution zealots based solely on one aspect by which they were known, their obsession with use of "-ism" characterizations), I'm indulging in cavalier slander. Perhaps now you understand my borderline fetishistic concern with the proper use of labels.

No, I don't understand your concern because you characterized me based on one aspect, where I have characterized Bush based on multiple aspects of his reign. Apples. Oranges.

I think the exaggeration that is part and parcel of using terms like "imperial" when the usage is questionable is what leads to a lack of substantive debate.

This was addressed to Charles, but I'll put in my 2 cents (it is my blog!). As I've said before, I don't think it's exaggeration to say Bush is imperial, but we've reached an impasse there so whatever. However, I'll observe that we have had a wideranging, erudite, and substantive debate since the discussion began.

I'd prefer political criticism/conversation.

That is certainly an important part of the mix, but framing is inherent in everything we talk about. Political discussion is necessarily about a difference in worldview, and we are always going to put things into terms that reflect our perspective. And I'm certainly not going to unilaterally disarm when it comes to political discourse.

I also often use words like "imperial" in the interest of efficieny. You immediately know what my general political views are, even if you don't know specifically all my reasons for using the word. If you do understand my reasons, then it saves me time because I don't have to write "I think George Bush is an arrogant, chauvinistic narcissist who rides roughshod over international law and civil rights, and shows great disdain for international partnerships, political dissent, the environment, the poor, and our Constitutionally-enshrined system of checks and balances." That's a mouthful.

Posted by: NTodd | Jun 4, 2004 10:04:20 AM

Dude, MLK was a big public prayer, too. :)

I'll take the "literal" criticism, but "obtuse"? I think you're venturing into ad hominem.

No, I don't understand your concern because you characterized me based on one aspect, where I have characterized Bush based on multiple aspects of his reign. Apples. Oranges.

I'd say it's more tomato/tomahto. I think you're only relying on only one aspect (arrogance) that potentially ties into the definition.

And I'm certainly not going to unilaterally disarm when it comes to political discourse.

It's not unilateral. Look for me using such arms; you won't see it.

"I think George Bush is an arrogant, chauvinistic narcissist who rides roughshod over international law and civil rights, and shows great disdain for international partnerships, political dissent, the environment, the poor, and our Constitutionally-enshrined system of checks and balances."

A much more valid way to frame your criticism!

Posted by: Hubris | Jun 4, 2004 10:49:40 AM

I'll take the "literal" criticism, but "obtuse"? I think you're venturing into ad hominem.

I don't mean it as an ad hominem--I didn't say "you are obtuse and therefore your arguments are wrong," afterall. I do feel like you are missing the point about the definitions and interpretations, but I will retract the charge and stick with "literal".

I think you're only relying on only one aspect (arrogance) that potentially ties into the definition.

Then you are missing or ignoring the other characteristics I mentioned about concentration and use of power, expansion of American hegemony, etc, that are also a part of the pattern.

It's not unilateral. Look for me using such arms; you won't see it.

I mean in the larger political arena. Framing is a part of politics and a part of human communication, and I'm going to continue doing it!

A much more valid way to frame your criticism!

Too cumbersome. Doesn't fit on a bumper sticker.

Posted by: NTodd | Jun 4, 2004 11:16:36 AM

I can live with our current civil disagreement.

Good talking with you.

Posted by: Hubris | Jun 4, 2004 11:30:14 AM

Cool. As I said, I've added you to the blogroll so I'll be poking around your site, and I'm sure I'll bump into you other places. Later.

Posted by: NTodd | Jun 4, 2004 11:41:33 AM

Apropos of nothing, I liked today's FoxTrot...

Posted by: NTodd | Jun 4, 2004 1:27:31 PM

"Apropos of nothing..."

I love it. Your post and the comic.

Amazing that there was actually a two-way converation about a rather prickly subject, nobody came to totally agree with the other point of view, but nobody was banned either. It's a beautiful thing.

Posted by: Charles2 | Jun 4, 2004 10:25:56 PM

Yeah, it was a good discussion!

Posted by: NTodd | Jun 5, 2004 6:58:46 AM

very interesting, but I don't agree with you
Idetrorce

Posted by: Idetrorce | Dec 15, 2007 7:51:44 AM

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